TRANSCRIPT: # 061700cb.471
SECTION: NEWS; INTERNATIONAL
LENGTH: 7362 words
HEADLINE: SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY For June 17, 2003
BYLINE: Joe Scarborough
HIGHLIGHT:
A Phoenix man is robbed by four armed gunmen, then chases them down in
his
Hummer. Renowned Reagan speechwriter and author Peggy Noonan discusses
President Bush. The woman at the center of the Roe vs. Wade debate
says she was
used.
BODY:
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:
Tonight on SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY: A Phoenix
man is
robbed by four armed gunmen, then a split decision to chase them down
in his
Hummer. The robbers are caught. Their getaway car is totaled. Is this
sort of
vigilante justice acceptable? We'll talk about it in tonight's "Real
Deal."
And renowned Reagan speechwriter and author Peggy Noonan on
President Bush:
Is he really unbeatable? We're going to have "The View From SCARBOROUGH
COUNTRY. "
And Roe's big regret: why the woman at the center of the Roe vs.
Wade debate
says she was used.
And then we'll have supermodel and conservative activist Kathy
Ireland. And
she's going to tell us why she's taking a brave stand against Hollywood
orthodoxy.
And a nationwide billboard campaign praying that the president
supports a
Jewish state. Evangelical Christians say the president should follow a
Biblical
road map as the only way to Mideast peace.
You're about to enter SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY: no passport required, no
vigilantes allowed.
Hey, welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. I'm Joe Scarborough. I hope
you're
having a great evening.
Now, what would you do if you heard a burglar in your home, you went
upstairs, and found him inside your child's room? Now, if you had a
gun, you'd
probably aim it at him. And if he ran at you, you'd probably defend
yourself and
your family. And if you lived in New York, you could end up actually
sharing the
same jail cell with the convict who was hovering over your kid's bed.
If you
don't believe it, stick around.
It's time for the "Real Deal."
Now, when I was in Congress, I lived on Capitol Hill for a year. I
spent the
rest of the time in my office or living in Virginia. Why? Because life
three
blocks from the United States Capitol was too dangerous then. Neighbors
working on the Hill were routinely held up. They had their cars
burglarized and
had their houses broken into. And many of these attacks were brazen and
they
were done in broad daylight.
It took me a while to figure it out, but I finally did. These
frequent
attacks came in my neighborhood because Washington has the most extreme
gun
control laws in America and no one working on Capitol Hill could afford
to have
their name showing up in "The Washington Post" on some illegal weapons
charge.
Ah, but the thugs who victimized the neighborhood, they didn't share
the same
concerns. So they roamed at will and they terrorized law-abiding
citizens,
citizens who were not allowed to defend themselves or their children
from such
attacks.
Now, I always thought it would have taken only one or two Hill
staffers
firing back in self-defense to send a very clear message to criminals
that open
season on Capitol Hill was over. But you know what? As crazy as the gun
laws are
in Washington, D.C., there is a sad story in the state of New York of a
man who
was actually prosecuted by the government for defending his family
against an
armed intruder.
Ron Dixon moved from Florida to New York. He worked seven days a
week at two
jobs and was looking for the American dream somewhere in Brooklyn. But
after
shooting a burglar who charged at him inside his house, state
prosecutors
decided to spend as much time nailing Dixon as they did on the burglar,
who was
also, by the way, a habitual offender.
Dixon bought and registered his gun in the state of Florida and he
was going
through the process of getting it licensed in New York state, which,
let me tell
you, it's a bureaucratic nightmare in and of itself. Gun control
activists seem
to hate to admit that guns do save lives. Some studies have suggested
that they
save as many as 2-2.5 million lives a year. And "The National Review"
recently
cited Justice Department studies showing that criminals' greatest fear
while
committing a crime is facing an armed citizen, like Ron Dixon, who has
the
ability and the willingness to defend his home, to defend his family
and to
defend his life.
You know what? The bumper sticker's right, even if it's simple. If
you outlaw
guns, then only the outlaws will have guns. It is that simple. And it's
tonight's "Real Deal."
With me now to discuss where to draw the line between self-defense
and
vigilante justice are defense attorney Keith Watters, and John Lott,
who is
author of "The Bias Against Guns: Why Almost Everything You've Heard
About Gun
Control is Wrong."
John, let me begin with you.
Are you surprised by the story in New York of Mr. Dixon, who defends
his
family from a burglar who comes into his house and then he may get sent
to jail?
JOHN LOTT, AUTHOR, "THE BIAS AGAINST GUNS": No, I'm not surprised by
the
story. I mean, I guess the thing that's surprising is how little
coverage these
defensive uses get.
People use defensive gun uses, as you say, about two million times a
year,
but yet it's pretty hard for most people to remember when the last time
they
heard a story on the news about someone using a gun defensively. The
only reason
why this story is getting the attention it is, is because something
went wrong,
in the sense that the person was arrested and -- but the vast majority
of times,
you never would hear of any story.
SCARBOROUGH: You just don't hear it. You don't hear the 2.5 million
times a
year that actually gun save the lives, not only of the gun owner, but
of the gun
owner's family.
Let me bring in Keith.
Keith, you've heard the story of what's happened in New York state.
You can
certainly understand why many Americans would be very concerned that a
law-abiding citizen in his own home, defending his family from a
criminal with a
long, long rap sheet would be sent to jail.
KEITH WATTERS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Joe, let's get the facts straight.
First of
all, he's not charged with shooting the individual. He was charged with
a
weapons violation for illegally having a gun. New York has a very strict
Sullivan Law. And to have your license in process is not good enough.
SCARBOROUGH: But, I mean, judges, though, aren't robots. They can
look at
facts of the case.
(CROSSTALK)
WATTERS: He was offered four weekends in jail for his crime of not
registering a gun. That sends a message that guns are not permissible.
Now, to
the other point
(CROSSTALK)
WATTERS: Yes, go ahead.
SCARBOROUGH: Keith, Keith, but getting to the other point, though,
this guy
works seven days a week. He works five days a week and then works two
days on
the weekend.
(CROSSTALK)
WATTERS: I agree. He's probably a good -- he's probably a good guy.
And
maybe, if I were the judge, I wouldn't send him to jail at all. But the
law is
the law. And if he violated the law by not having a registered gun,
then he
broke the law, like anybody else.
LOTT: But he was going through the process of getting it registered.
(CROSSTALK)
WATTERS: That doesn't mean anything. I could be going through the
process of
getting a driver's license. That doesn't mean I can drive.
LOTT: But the unfortunate thing about the law is, you're forcing
people for
six months or a year to live in New York without being able to defend
themselves, because the state is so...
WATTERS: Oh, no. Crime rates are down all over the country.
LOTT: That's not the point.
WATTERS: And I don't know where this 2.5 million figure comes from.
SCARBOROUGH: Hey, we'll give you that in a minute.
(CROSSTALK)
WATTERS: Of all the homicides committed last year, 154 were
justifiable, with
people using guns correctly. Thousands and thousands of people die each
year.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Cut off the mikes. Cut off the mikes. Cut off the mikes.
Listen, we've got to keep this moving. I want to go on to a next
point. On
Saturday night in Phoenix, Arizona, Peter Shepherd's (ph) business was
robbed by
four armed men who escaped in a getaway car. Taking matters into his own
hands, Shepherd jumped into his $50,000 Hummer. He chased the robbers
down and
ran over their car, sending three of the suspects to the hospital.
And here's why Shepherd says he took matters into his own hands.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they're going to do this to us, and they're
going to
get away from it, and they're going to hurt the employees here, they're
going to
come back again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: All right, John, this is really not the same thing as
shooting
somebody in your home. This guy chased these guys down and ran them
over. Isn't
that getting close to vigilante justice?
LOTT: Well, sure. I guess you could call it an assault vehicle that
was used
in this case.
But when people use guns defensively, they're very reticent to do
that. Fewer
than one out of every 1,000 times that people use guns defensively is
the
attacker killed.
SCARBOROUGH: OK, Keith, hold on, hold on, hold on. Hold the
statistics for a
second. Let's talk about this specific case, though. What if this guy
had a gun,
chased these guys out of his store, and then shot them? Is that
acceptable to
you?
(CROSSTALK)
LOTT: No, it's not.
WATTERS: Yes, I would agree. I think that's unjustifiable use of
force,
deadly force. His life was not in imminent danger at that point. That's
when
you're justified in using force, when you're afraid you're about to get
killed
or hurt. He's not a police officer.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: John, what's your take on this?
LOTT: The law is very clear. You are allowed to use force that's
commensurate
to the risk that you're facing. If somebody's running away from you,
you have
no right to go and shoot them in the back. But if they're approaching
you, if
they're threatening you or someone else, you're allowed to go and defend
yourself.
SCARBOROUGH: All right, Keith, you said that crime was down. I want
to read
you some statistics that were just released by the FBI recently. Murder
is
actually up an astounding 12.4 percent from last year in the suburbs.
And rape
is up 4 percent nationwide.
WATTERS: But the long-term trends on crime are way down all across
the
country.
SCARBOROUGH: The long-term trends are down. But, at the same time,
don't you
think it's problematic, if places like Washington, D.C., New York City,
and
other urban areas make it hard for citizens like Ron Dixon to get a gun
permit,
so he can protect his family?
WATTERS: Because I think it's a fallacy. I think this is
crime-baiting the
NRA types put out there, that you got a right to have a gun to protect
yourself.
We don't live in the Wild Wild West days. You go to a country like
Canada,
England, Japan, there's virtually no gun crime whatsoever, because
they're not
allowed to have guns. We've got to get out of Wild Wild West mentality
in this
country.
SCARBOROUGH: John Lott, respond, 15 seconds. Then we've got to go.
LOTT: Yes.
Police are extremely important for stopping crime, but they can't be
there
all the time. And you have to ask, what do you recommend that somebody
do when
they're having to confront a criminal by themselves. And by far, the
safest
course of action for someone to take in that case is to have a gun.
(CROSSTALK)
WATTERS: They usually end up killing a loved one.
SCARBOROUGH: All right. Thank you, John Lott. All right. Thank you,
John
Lott.
Thank you, Keith Watters. We appreciate you being here tonight.
Updated Media Analysis of Appalachian Law School Attack
Since the first news search was done additional news stories have been
added to Nexis:
There are thus now 218 unique stories, and a total of 294 stories counting
duplicates (the stories in yellow were duplicates): Excel file for
general overview and specific stories. Explicit mentions of defensive gun use
increase from 2 to 3 now.